Balancing tires and brakes, with performance and lifespan

"Cash Rewards" (cashrewards) 05/29/2018 at 12:24 • Filed to: None

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The miata came with some nice Hankook allseasons, with some good miles left on them. The plan is to run them through this season, destroy them with some autocrosses, then get new, performance oriented tires next year. I need new brakes now, though. If I get an autocross oriented pad like the HP+, will I be outbraking my tires, so to speak? Would I be better off with an performance street HPS?

What is the differences in expected lifespan between an HPS and HP+ pad, anyway? And what about a 200 treadwear tire compared to a 300-400 treadwear tire? Will I be able to get more than year of backroads and autocross from a 200 tire? If not, I think i need to go higher. I do not want to budget 600+ for new tires every year, compared to 400+ every other year. That’s assuming I can get 2 years out of a 300-400 treadwear tire; is that a reasonable assumption?

So help, OPPO. How do I balance to cost and performance of tires and brake pads for autocross and backroads, without having to get a new set each year?

e36Jeff now drives a ZHP > Cash Rewards 05/29/2018 at 13:17

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Granted this is referring to track days in a ZHP, but I found that the HPS pads could be destroyed in a single event, whereas the HP+ pads stand up to 5-6 events(tires were always Pilot Super Sports). Additionally the HP+ pads seem to deal with the heat slightly better than the HPS pads and remained more consistent lap-to-lap, but neither ever gave out on me.

On the downside, the HP+ pads are rather noisy on the street, with lots of squeals and squeaks where the HPS pads are fairly civilized(interestingly the noise goes away when they warm up on track, I used that to determine when I could start going 10/10ths). Both have about the same street stopping power, although the HP+ pads can be lacking some bite if they are cold. They both put out about the same level of dust.

I do want to try out Hawk’s Street Race pads, as those are designed for exactly what I do to the HP+ pads, which is put them on at home, drive to the track, run laps, then drive home and remove them. They have a better temp range than the HP+ pads and I suspect that I might get better overall life out of them.

WRXforScience > Cash Rewards 05/29/2018 at 13:24

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The go-to autox tires have phenomenal grip and you cannot get a pad that is too aggressive for them in low heat applications (autox and canyons). The HP+ or the improved new version the Street/Race pads are great and will not be too much for what you are doing (dust and noise are their only downsides).

If you want to be competitive at autox, you have to get either some RE71r’s or some Rivals (whatever the newest version is, the Bridgestones are my preference and are cheaper than the BFG’s). A set will last 100-200 runs but if you daily them you might heat cycle them before they wear out (this also happens if you run at a low wear site). 100 miles on the street is about the same as an autox run (for tire wear with the good stuff), but if you are thrashing down a canyon you could put some real wear on the soft rubber.

The extreme levels of grip of the good tires are so high that they often make canyon runs too mundane to be worth it, or require so much more speed that the risks aren’t worth the effort (I have recorded over 1.5g’s on my RE71r’s cornering on the track and regularly pull 1.2-1.3g’s braking (I have to be careful driving on the street because 50% braking for me is full panic stop for the people behind me).

I always recommend 2 sets of wheels and tires, you could go with something that lasts longer for the canyons and trackdays (Hankook RS4, Falken Azenis 615k+, Federals, or Maxxis) and a set of RE71r’s for autox. The RE71r’s are significantly faster than the lower tier tires (0.5-1.0s for a typical autox and 1-2s for track duty). Miatas aren’t too tough on brakes, so the Hawk pads your looking at should work for street, autox, and light track duty; however, if you decide to seriously start tracking the Miata you will save money by upping to a real race pad (1.5-2x the initial cost but 4-5x the lifespan).

daender > Cash Rewards 05/29/2018 at 18:15

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I think I’ve said it in the past but I’m running OEM Mazdas pads which are great for street and autocross use. I found my old receipt for them when I ordered from Mazdaspeed about two years ago. I ordered them because my Miata is my daily driver so I didn’t want to deal with dusty pads or deal with frustration of either ordering the wrong pads or receiving the wrong pads that’re meant for non-sport brake NB2s.

My friend who went to SCCA Nationals in his ‘01 Miata (running regular 1.8L brakes) recommends HP+ if you’re wanting to be serious about autocross but still have pads that survive daily use.

As for tires, I’ve run six different tires so far in autocross, two of which are 200 TW. I’ve had a set of barely-used Nitto NeoGen 205/50/R15 (280TW) that lasted about three years through autocross, daily driving, and a few mountain runs. After that I ran barely-used Dunlop Z2 Star Specs for two years until there was little tread left. You can get two years about of 200 TW tires but that depends on how many autocrosses, track days, and daily driving you do on them. I didn’t do track days so my tires were good for two years at the least.

daender > Cash Rewards 05/29/2018 at 18:33

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I will add that I bought a second set of 15x6.5 Konig Helium wheels and some BFG Sport Comp 2 tires around Cyber Monday 2016 for daily use so I could preserve what was left of my old Z2*s and make the most of the Toyo R1Rs I currently use for autocross. The advantages are that I can use 195/55/R15 Comp 2s for daily use for improved fuel economy, a less-inaccurate speedo (2.5 mph faster than actual rather than 5 mph), and I reduce wear and heat cycling on my autocross tires. The disadvantages are that I have to spend time before and after events changing out tires and that I have to carry my autocross tires upstairs to store them to reduce heat-cycling and to make room in an already-tight garage.

Cash Rewards > daender 06/01/2018 at 16:51

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I got someone offering me a set of the heliums, no tires, for $230. Good deal, or be patient?

daender > Cash Rewards 06/01/2018 at 17:43

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If they’re straight and not curbed, then take them. Easy choice. I recommend picking up a set of hub-centric rings (plastic or aluminum, I prefer plastic unless you’re going to do a lot of track days) for those wheels if they don’t come with them. Do they include the center caps as well? It’s hard to find replacements for them.

Cash Rewards > daender 06/01/2018 at 17:53

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$230 includes hub centric rings. I might just grab em

daender > Cash Rewards 06/01/2018 at 18:23

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Hell, take them if they’re not bent or badly curbed. What color are they?

Cash Rewards > daender 06/02/2018 at 12:59

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Silver. 3hr round trip away though

daender > Cash Rewards 06/02/2018 at 13:08

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Silver’s a good color. Not too fond of black anymore but I already bought them so w/e. Bronze is my favorite.

Cash Rewards > daender 06/02/2018 at 13:34

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Thats the issue. Bronze would look great on red with a tan top. But I gotta figure out where the money goes. Need brakes and a shifter rebuild. I’d love an axle back exhaust, but got no justification for one. I need a good long and short term plan and budget.